Monday 28 June 2010

ASBO's - The answer to nothing

I admit it, I'm a lazy sod. I hadn't really bothered to think it through before writing my blog about the ASBO kid with ADHD. Had I not been such a slob and considered the matter properly, I would have raised the main, fundamental point which I completely missed. The point is that I think ASBO's are a disgrace. All they are is a sticking plaster policy, something which the authorities can do when they can't accept the fact that our current society has no coherent policy for dealing with persistent offenders. Most of the people who receive ASBO's are troubled youngsters. The vast majority of them don't come from stable home backgrounds. Many have issues with drink and drugs. For the vast majority, all the ASBO does is make them cause trouble somewhere else. For me that is not enough. I think that in a civilised society we are morally bound to try and help them move away from a lifestyle of anti social behaviour. The ASBO is a stick. Where is the carrot?

I believe that senior policemen, social workers, prison governors and everyone else involved with the rehabilitation of such people should have salaries where a significant proportion of their salary is based on the reoffending rates of the young people they deal with. I don't believe in being soft on offenders, but I do believe that rehabilitation is part of the process. If all prison does is keep people off the streets till their sentance is spent, whilst equipping them with even better crime skills, it is a failure. ASBO's must contain an element of carrot as well as stick. I believe in making the punishment fit the crime. If someone gets done for graffiti, make them clean it off as part of their ASBO. If they cause trouble, make them do community service which in some we addresses the problems they caused. If they have issues with drugs, give them counselling and offer them rehab, in return for eventual easing of restrictions. Educate them as to the damage they are doing themselves. Offer them ways back into education. Many prisoners are illiterate. Make addressing this issue a priority for prison governors.

I would give offenders who don't play ball longer sentences and harsher regimes. If people decide to "conform", ease the conditions off. If they persistently reoffend, raise the bar for parole. I would take care to try and separate hardened offenders from first timers within the prison service. As for ASBO's , rather than banning people from areas, I'd compel them to take college courses or learn skills.If they don't want to, send them to prison. I believe that there is a huge imbalance in the system. We lock up some people for far too long, whilst freeing others who we should throw away the key for. If the people with responsibility for these people got less wonga if the people in there charge reoffended, they might actually take the issue of getting them out of crime seriously.

12 comments:

Jason said...

If you had actually considered the matter properly, and bothered to do a bit of research perhaps you would have realised that the carrot is already in place, with supportive interventions parasitic on ASBOs. Courts are required to consider such support when making ASBOs - examples include Individual Support Orders for under 18s, Intervention Orders (targeted at addressing drug misuse) where drugs are the cause of the ASB. Furthermore Legislation has now received Royal Assent and is awaiting a commencement order, which will require Courts to consider the making of a Parenting Order (addressed at forcing the parent to attend courses with a view to skilling them up to deal with their wayward child) when an ASBO is breached.

Rog T said...

Jason,
In your rush to be a smartarse you rather missed the point completely.

I believe that the ASBO should be part of the parenting order \& other remedies, if it isn't working not the other way round. You're not Mike Freer in disguise are you?

Moaneybat said...

Jason,

There's nothing more complex than "carrot & stick" Orders Parenting Skills begin (as in many other Western and EU states) before becoming a parent, in the classroom.

If you had bothered to read Rog Ts earlier blog then you get where and why we fail as a Society.

There are families with well behaved kids who conform to generally accepted norms but the Parenting Order is still necessary to skill up the parent whom is an abject failure in many other ways whom, in the long term fails what is a bright child or children from achieving the same grades as David Cameron's children.

Listen to the constant rhetoric, like the last Labour Government, a continuing 'Government of Business,' continuing to pay lip service to Big, Fair, Equal, Just Society, without ever thinking it through so that, Britain can achieve the Legislated Cohesive and Orderly Communities
without investing in them.

Time to stop repeating the cycle of decline and throwing money for renewal from one generation to the next without getting it right from the beginning.

Rog, good blog offering some obvious solutions

Mrs Angry said...

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
I somehow managed to miss your blog about the ADHD issue. Really, Rog, I think I am about to explode. Firstly, you must understand how ADHD is being used in some - not all - cases as an excuse for bad parenting, and worse, even abusive and neglectful parenting. ADHD is a highly controversial subject and a subjective diagnosis.
I can assure you, and I am trying very hard here to be restrained, that if you had been through the hellish experiences that I have tried to describe in my blog,and your own children -with their own 'needs' - were subjected to the petrifying, sustained ASB of a family who cynically and continually used the excuse of ADHD by one family member to prevent them from any punishment or restraint on their rule of terror, then you might just take a different view.
You will find in this situation that your own children's rights and even needs are completely ignored, and I wonder how you would cope with that?
I can assure you that ASBOs are not granted without full consideration of the background. In this case, you may be taking the word of this youth's 'friend' that he has ADHD,'conduct disorder' etc etc: if he does have mitigating circumstances, this order would not have been granted by the court. Continued support is given, even when such an order is made.
Cast your mind back to last year, and the Pilkington case, in whcih a woman terrorised for years by yobs was driven to suicide. Or the boys who were nearly beaten to death by yobs whho had been making life hell for thier community, while thier moither was being given 'support for her needs'. The coroner in the Pilkington case heavily criticised the council for now taking any effective action to protect the Pilkingtons from such hell. Sara Payne,acting as 'Victims' Champion, and a recent police inspectorate report have both recently lobbied for the emphasis to move from the perpetrators of ASB to supporting the victims. You have no idea how devastating an impact such behaviour has on your life as a victim of this crap: we have to take a stronger line with parents who refuse to take responsibility for their childrens' behaviour and blame it on everyone else but their lazy, amoraland negligent parenting.Yes,of course children with genuine needs deserve help, but those who are simply badly behaved must be stopped from damaging the lives of innocent people,and hiding behind a convenient excuse.The Pilkington case was an extreme and tragic reaction, but boy do I understand where she was coming from.

Broadway Blogger said...

I dont believe in ASBOS at all. They are difficult to enforce and because of that they have little impact on the people who receive them. They also stigmatise people who are essentially free or should be free.

They should be scrapped.

The problem is our expensive Justice System which exists to pay out massive amounts of public money to lawyers - Police - Judges etc.

We need to dismantle that system and replace it with a streamlined system fit for purpose.

The current system is broken and should be binned.

I would like to see clearer legislation - and then clearer sentencing.

Sentencing should start with a fine - then community sentencing - then a min of 1 year sentence for a persistent offender ( the 3 strikes principle like in the USA ) if the offender continues to offend each sentence should be doubled.

The state cant afford career criminals. We need to stop the waste of money to lawyers and judges and courts - who have an interest in FREEING the criminals and jailing the innocent - it makes more money for them.

I do hope the COALITION decides to be bold and undo all the appalling legislation of New Labour which like ASBOS was badly thought out and does not actually work.

Jason - you can write as many Parenting Orders as you want. They wont change a thing. Words on a piece of paper have no power unless they are enforcable. The cost of courses is something that as a taxpayer I dont want to foot the bill.

We must put ALL our money into Education and Health. Then we would not need these sticking plaster ideas that you all suggest. The problem needs proper laws and sentences - not airy fairy idealism .

Moaneybat said...

BB,

Man, can't disagree with you.

Broadway Blogger said...

You see the Police have time to do things like this
http://julesmattsson.wordpress.com/2010/06/28/the-romford-incident/

Which is a story about to break big in the National Press. Truly shocking incident where the Police made a big mistake harassing a professional PRESS PHOTOGRAPHER at the Romford military parade at the weekend.

This is an example of how innocent people are harassed and then real criminals are left alone by the Police.

We really do need a new system.

Rog T said...

The way these comment threads develop is always interesting. It is worth remembering that the vast majority of people with ASBO's don't have ADHD and the vast majority or people with ADHD don't have ASBO's.

What I want is a fit for purprpose criminal justice system, where people who are dangerous are locked up, people who can be reformed are reformed and people who are on the fringes of a life of trouble are lead away from it. Of course there are many specific, individual cases, which throw up exceptional circumstances.

If ASBO's fixed peoples lives or stopped the type of problem Mrs Angry faced I'd support them. I don't see too much evidence that they do much more than move it on. Mrs Angry didn't have problems solely because her neighbour had ADHD. She had problems because a whole range of social ills were not dealt with by Barnet Council. There are many such families where they have a different excuse.

I used to have a neighbour who I didn't get on with, who was later pictured on the front page of the Sun as he was in Great Britains top 10 criminals. Strangely enough I'd prefer him to Mrs Angrys ex neighbours, even though he was allegedly a contract hit man (although I do hope they never dig up his patio :^) ).

What we really should be doing is campaigning so that in future, the system is better suited to dealing with the problems of Mrs Angrys neighbours. Once these are addressed (rather than just moved on), ultimately Mrs Angry will calm down. How do we do it? We hold the anti social neighbours accountable, help them deal with their problems, without allowing these problems to ruin the quality of life of their neighbours. I happen to believe that the workhouse isn't the solution. There are places around the UK that address this more successfully than Barnet. I would suggest that pressure is brought to bear on Barnet to emulate them. Where are they? Us plebs don't know because there isn't a Mr Happy blog that I can find praising a well run council.

Mrs Angry said...

Rog: you simply don't know enough about this issue to comment fairly, I'm afraid. Of course, I will be the first to admit that this has never prevented me from expressing my opinion on any given subject, and no doubt that is why you and I both have ended up blogging.
It's not a matter of 'calming down': you cannot understand, unless you have been through something like this yourself,the amount of long lasting psychological impact an experience like ours has on your family: bad enough for adults, just awful for children.
The justice system needs to be rebalanced so that the victims of crime are given precedence over those who choose to break the law.
I know from not just personal experience but from involvement with SNT ward panels, how difficult it is to deal with the issue of ASB. We are not talking about kids with difficulties in the majority of cases: we ar talking about bad behaviour resulting from negligent parenting, and you would be surprised as I was to find that some local trouble making youths are from affluent homes: bad parents occur in all backgrounds.
You seem to misunderstand the use of ASBOs. They can and do work, and are only applied for after the individual has been given plenty of 'support' and 'engagement'.This has to be proven to have been given before any court will consider action. In the case in the local paper the person appears to have been given three previous Acceptable Behaviour Contracts as well. All sorts of help is given to families in these circumstances: parenting classes, anger management courses etcetc. ASBOs are given ONLY when all else fails or when the individual refuses to cooperate. At this point you have to prioritise the wellbeing of the victims and tne larger community, hence the court action. The victims may well have been through months of trauma by this stage.
ASBOOs can be sought by police or the council:the problem lies when the council is reluctant to spend money on such action, or to resource an effective team of officers able to address the issue of ASB. If the trouble occurs in council tenants in council property, there is an established preocedure for dealing with it and the coucnil ois pbliged to take action: if if happens in that privately owned house next door to you in leafy Mill Hill, you've had it mate, the council will do f*ck all, as we found. When your daughter is too scared to walk out of her own house, or your son is kept awake all night before his GCSEs, or you end up sleeping on a camp bed in your kitchen because of drunken/drug abusing yobs partying all night,every night in the room next to your bedroom, or you have youths jumping into your garden in front of your windows threatening you, do you know, I don't think you will be quite so worried about the possible drawbacks of the ASBO system. And I sincerely hope that it does never happen to you, or anyone else.

Broadway Blogger said...

Mrs Angry - my elderly parents had this problem - in a leafy country town....it took 2 years before the Police actually did anything to stop it happening to them and their neighbours ( some nearly 90 years old ) in a very nice place where nothing like this usually happens. It got to the point where they were hiding behind the curtains getting ready to run outside to chase the "yoofs". Luckily nothing too serious ever happened but it is the psychological stress of feeling under seige in your own home that is much of the problem. Many dont understand that because until it happens to you I suppose it all seems very unreal. We must protect people in their own homes as a society - especially the old and those who are vulnerable. But no-one deserves to feel a prisoner in their own home at any age.

Mrs Angry said...

That is exactly how we felt, BB: under siege in our own home, with no where to escape. And we will never be the same again, nor will our home ever feel safe. The only experience that I can compare it to is being raped: a sustained violation of our privacy, peace and family life. The people who caused us so much grief knew exactly what they were doing,enjoyed what they were doing, and knew exactly how to evade the consequences.

Moaneybat said...

Under Seige and under fear, is how the majority of people including working professionals have to live on our council estates with the threat of or, actual assault when the like-minded band together as in the Pilkington case.

Unfortunately, following today's announcement by both, Minister Teresa May and the Police, on cuts affecting frontline policing, don't expect things to improve.

Government abdicating responsiblity for law and order, by handing it to the local community to manage the risks, without proper funding is insulting and most likely lead to the inevitable that Labour were responsible for.